HOW TO GET RID AND STAY OUT OF DEBT

Justin Harrison 00:03
Okay, and we’re live.

David Bester 00:08
Okay. I see we've got 13 people online already.

Justin Harrison 00:13
Good morning everyone. If you are joining us for the first time, please feel free to leave your name, let us know which part of the country you're from. If you've been on our webinars before, please leave a comment and let us know that you've been on our previous webinars; we always like welcoming people back to our webinars. This morning, Dawie and I have got a really, really important subject, which we want to chat about, which want to get out. I think this is probably the fundamental reason why people actually land up looking at their credit profiles, looking at their credit reports. Today, we're discussing, “How to get rid of debt and how to stay out of debt”. I think this is a very, very relevant topic now Dawie, especially considering the entire state of the current economy, considering the state of people's earnings. I think it's really, really important that we get as much of this info out to people because people know they're in debt, and I think people often are sinking but they quite know to get themselves out. And today, we’re going to address it and really give people very basic, fundamental tools, that they started implementing to get themselves out of this debt trap.

David Bester 01:32
Yes, like you said, you and I often speak about it and we've also got this other project, ‘Global Money Academy’, where we teach people about personal finances. And you and I, always joke and laugh and say, everyone uses money every single day and yet, it's the only thing that is missing from us, from our education system, which is quite weird. So, it's actually a very basic subject, it's just, people don’t have a clue about it and they don’t have a clue about managing money because we've never really learned how to manage money properly, in our school system. Very few people know this but the school system was actually developed in the industrial revolution, to actually to create good factory workers; they needed factory workers to work in the factories, since it was an industrial revolution. And since then, the education system hasn't actually changed; we're still learning the same things, and it’s still a pretty outdated educational system.

Justin Harrison 02:28
Dawie, when you think about it, it's actually insane. There's a beautiful Afrikaans word that I love to use to describe this, “Dis belaglik”. It’s absolutely insane that we send kids to school for 12 years and then, even onto tertiary education. And even if they do decide to take Economics as a subject, even if they do decide to study Economics at university, the fact of the matter is, most people just don't understand money. And they don't understand money because the fundamental building bridges haven't been taught. You don't get taught from your parents, most of the time; it's exception if you do. You don't get taught by the education system; throughout school, you never really get to understand money. And what's worse is, we’re now, very much moving towards a digital era. I mean, cash is becoming something that we use less and less and we’re mostly using electronic money, so people are very, very emotionally separated from the reality of money. And I think that is the reason why it's so easy for people to rack up debt. We have more debt now, than we've ever had in history, by the consumer and the main reason for it is, it's a little card that you go out and swipe and worry about the problem later. In the old days, you actually had to have cash in hand, and to get cash that you didn’t have, you had to go, literally, ask and borrow the cash. Now, it's all electronic, it's nameless, it’s faceless and it's easy to land up in a very deep, dark, spiralling debt hole, and hopefully today, we can help people get out of that. So, before we get going, Dawie, I just want to say hello to a few people here. We have a bunch of people, leaving comments and saying good morning.

Vusi: “Good morning from Cape Town”; Howard, also from Cape Town: “Good morning”; Celeste - we've seen you on here before, I'm sure. Nhlanhla, Miriam, Shahida - we've seen you here before. Anne: “Good morning”; Unathi: “Good morning”; Michelle Jacobs from Bloemfontein - we've seen you on here before, good morning. Dale, the CFO, Chief Financial Officer of our business, he’s on here. We've got Junella: “Good morning”; Howard Lowe, has got a good question for us, which maybe we can address once we're getting into the slides. So, good morning, everyone. Thanks for joining us. We know that your time is valuable. So, we're going to do our absolute best to get through the content as quickly as possible and address your questions. Dawie, over to you.

David Bester 05:07
Yes, we've got quite a lot of things we want to cover this morning, so I don't know how much time we're going to have to do questions. However, we did decide on something last week, which is, we're going to have a live question answering session on Facebook, where you guys can ask as many questions as you'd like. We're not going to be doing content, we’re just going to spend all our time, answering questions. So, if your question doesn't get answered today, we will eventually get to it and just keep an eye out for the notifications. Also, we will be sending out a replay, if any of you guys get disconnected, or if you have to run and can’t make it until the end of the webinar. Also, at the end of the webinar, we’ve got a surprise for you. We just launched our new design of our credit reports, so we'll do a quick live demo on that as well. So, let's get started; we've got a lot of things to cover today. As you know, we're going to be talking about, how to get rid of and stay out of debt, completely. So, what we'll cover today: Number one reason why people are failing at money; how to control your spending habits; how to get out of debt and how to stay out of debt.

First things first, please subscribe to this channel. We want to get this information out to as many people as possible. We can't do it ourselves; we need the help of you guys, as viewers. Also, you will get notifications whenever we do more webinars like these and you will obviously, benefit from getting the notifications. So, let's dive in. The first thing is: The number one reason why people fail at money. It is a lack of emotional control over money. Very few people know this but when it comes to money, most of us make buying decisions, not out of logic but out of emotions. For instance, you want that instant gratification; you see a car that you like – a 4X4 that you like - and immediately, you make up 100 excuses or 100 reasons why you need that thing. You'll walk into the grocery store, for instance, your kid will be screaming and just out of emotion, you’ll just take the thing and throw it in the basket and buy it, and you don't actually need it. And, the fundamental thing to understand is, you need to understand that need to decide what you want and what you really need. Most of the things we buy is because of ‘wants’ and not really because of ‘needs’. If you walk around in your house now, you'll probably see that there’s clutter everywhere, there’s stupid stuff that you actually don't need; stuff that you haven't used for a very long time; it's just piling up in your house and that is because of the fact that you let your emotions get the most out of you, when it comes to buying these things. And you actually end up buying stuff that you don't need. Justin, I know you've got a lot to say about this, since you wrote the book, ‘Money Secrets’ and you've spent a lot of time on emotional buying. So, maybe you can give your take here?

Justin Harrison 08:03
Ja, I think the best example I can give on this, Dawie is, perhaps, if I can just give a little bit of background and then the one example, which I think is, maybe something that hopefully people will remember forever. I grew up exceptionally poor; I didn't have access to the things that most people have and on top of which, I landed up in a very strange schooling environment. I was a good rugby player. Consequently, I landed up at a very good school, and most of the kids at that school, their parents had money. And so, I always had this feeling of always ‘wanting’; I always wanted the same stuff they had: the fancy shoes; I wanted to live in a nice house one day. So, that really became the focal point of my journey in life. And I worked my way up and got all the nice things, made lots of mistakes along the way and I got to a point in my life, where I made a lot of money; I got all the things I wanted.

And I sat back one day and I actually realised, none of it makes me happy. I realised that no material thing makes me happy and I actually took a piece of paper and I wrote down on that piece of paper, what are the five things that make me happiest. And on that list, not one single thing was a material thing. And I want this point to really resonate with every single person. Every material thing that you like today, will eventually land up in a scrap heap, back in the ground, eventually at some points in the future. So, the value that you place on things is, pretty much purely emotional, and if I can encourage people with one thing - whenever you're making a purchase, go and ask yourself: do I want this thing, or do I need this thing? Do I want this thing, or do I need this thing? Now, there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting things, but your needs should always outweigh your wants. And you should be making 90% of your decisions around needs and if you do that, you can get yourself out of debt.

David Bester 09:56
For sure, I think it's also pretty difficult these days. We get all these advertising campaigns that has clearly been designed to trigger that emotion within us to actually go and buy. So, it's sometimes difficult and like you said earlier, it's so easy these days to buy. You just take your credit card out or these days, you can just use SnapScan and just scan a barcode and there you've got it; you’ve made the purchase already. And at the end of the month, it becomes a problem.

Justin Harrison 10:24
Well, Dawie, I always say to people, if there's one thing that this world has become really good at - we've become a crap at a lot of things - we don't look at our environment, family values have slipped, the way we manage money is not the greatest, our moral standing in society is really frayed over the last couple of decades - I think we’re now in a worse place, in many instances, in terms of our moral fibre, than ever before. But if there’s one thing that the world and people are becoming really good at is, relieving you of your money. So, just understand, everybody's out there to relieve you of your money. Nobody's going to manage your money, nobody’s going to hang onto it for you; you need to understand that every person out there is willing to relieve you of your money. You need to be ready to start thinking about needs versus wants; that that is how you're going to get out of the hole that you’re in.

David Bester 11:18
Ja, exactly. Creating a habit of saying no. Yes, one of the obvious reasons why people have a lot of debt is, they are spending more than what they earn. Look, it's pretty simple and I know it sounds pretty simple if I put it that way but if you spend more than you earn, you're going to land up having a problem, eventually. I know it’s easier said than done but, it all ties back to the number one reason why people fail, which is the lack of emotional control. Like Justin said earlier, think about any material possession you've got - I can give myself as an example - I wanted this nice 4X4 and my reasoning was that, it's a reliable car. I can fit in the whole family in there, I can fit all my sports stuff in there, and I don't regret buying the car, but if I had financial issues, I would have regretted buying that car because it's a pretty expensive car and I thought I was going to be happy when I got it. I climbed in the car the next day, the feeling was a little bit less, it was a little bit less, and now I've got no feeling the for car, actually. It’s a method of transport for me. Suffice to say, it didn’t make me happy, really. The things that I remember most is the trips that I've taken, the time I’ve spent with my family. And funny enough, that is actually the cheapest things that I’ve spent money on, as well. So, it comes back to an understanding of what is emotional, what is a ‘want’ and what is a ‘need’ and what should you really spend money on. And if you can delay that gratification, instead of just satisfying your instant gratification.

Justin Harrison 12:55
So Dawie, I think spending more than you earn, is something that a lot of people battle to understand because they say, what happens if I don't earn a lot? What happens if I'm just not making it, every month? Because that’s the spiral that people land up in. First of all, they spend too much. Then they say, well, I don't earn enough. And so, this becomes an old trade-off between earning more money or spending less money. I think, the real important thing that people need to understand with spending more than earn; you have to live within your means. In fact, I would say, living within your means is probably the better way to sell the points of spending less than you earn. People need to accept that if you only have these means, that's all you have. And until you have more means, well, you have to stick with the means you have; you have to work with what you have, not with what you don't have. And the problem is, most people are working with what they don't have. They’re paying the rent with debt, they’re paying their medical aid with debt, etc., etc. Actually Dawie, I’ve got a challenge for you, specifically, and your 4X4, at the end of this webinar. Maybe, you and I can enter into a little challenge and be an example to everybody, about how we can actually set our emotions aside. Are you up for it?

David Bester 14:11
Let’s go.
Justin Harrison 14:12
Okay. We’ll talk about it at the end of the webinar.

David Bester 14:17
Okay, cool. You actually put me off completely, on what I was thinking. Let's get to the next one: How to control your spending habits. The problems that you’ve got at the moment is a by-product of your past habits. When you look at alcoholics or any addicts, the first thing they need to do is, they need to admit their problem and they need to admit their addiction. And that is what you need to do as well, when you've got a problem with debt. You need to admit that you made mistakes in the past and the reason why you've got a debt problem is, you've been spending too much, you've been racking up too much debt, you probably didn't have the right insurance. Whatever it might be, there is a reason for the fact that you don't have the money or that you’re in the problems that you are in. The first thing to admit, is to admit the problem that you’ve got, then, once you know the problem, you’ve got to reflect back on what mistakes you have made in the past. Because, the most important thing for you, if you make mistakes, is to learn from them. If you keep making the same mistakes, then you’re never going to be in a better position or you’re never going to be any better off. You have to reflect back on what you have done and then change you spending habits and change your future. It all starts now and you cannot change, if you don’t know what mistakes you’ve made in the past.

Justin Harrison 15:38
Ja. A great way for people to just look at their habits: pull your latest credit report and once you’ve got your latest credit report, just go down in your history. Okay. Have a look into the number of addresses on your report. Okay. How many places you've lived in. Then go and have a look at how many telephone numbers you've had, then go and have a look at the number of accounts that you've got. Now, I'll tell you a fundamental difference between my credit report and most people's. If you go and look under store accounts, I've never had a single store account, never, ever. I don’t have a Woolworths account, a Foschini account, an Edgars account, a Mr Price account, nothing. I’ve never had, never will have. Right. That's the first glaring fundamental difference. The second glaring fundamental difference is, you'll notice that I've had two cell phone numbers my entire life. Okay. One was a contract number, and when contracts no longer made economic sense for me, I moved to prepaid. I’ve had two cell phone numbers my entire life. Now, what this tells you is, that my past habits are very consistent with where I am today. I have consistently made decisions that don't involve hopping to the next deal, hopping to the next account that's going to give me access to go and buy close on an account or homeware on an account. Go and pull your latest credit report, if you want to really see. I always say to people, if you want the most honest reflection of what's important to you, show me where you spend your money, show me where you spend your time. And all I have to do is, look at someone's bank statement or their credit record. And I'll tell them exactly where their promise is. The first thing, you are 100% correct, you identify your habits. Identify the mistakes you've made in the past. Then admit these to yourself, and only then, can you start changing them.

David Bester 17:26
100%. You hit the nail on the head there. There’s this magical little section on your credit report, which is called your payment profile history. Now, that obviously accounts for 40% of your total credit score, and this part on your credit report, is the most important one, that will tell you exactly what you've done in the past. So, if you've got a bad credit score, I bet you are not paying your accounts on time. And if you’ve got too many accounts, that is why you've got a debt problem. And that is why you are not making your accounts. The next obvious thing is, personal loans and micro loans - those things are toxic. If you start getting into them, it's very easy to miss a payment. And the fact that you're taking out personal loans and micro loans, means that you're already crossing the line, when it comes to debt and spending habits. So, the most important thing to do there is, cut back on your spending and live within your means. If you're paying too much on rent, move to a cheaper place, a smaller place or into a suburb. It's funny but you can actually move about 10 kilometres down, to different suburb, you can get a bigger, better house, than what you currently have. It all depends on the situation.

Justin Harrison 18:36
Dawie, you know what’s the most amazing thing to me, about human nature? People will know that they're in debt, they'll be scratching everywhere for an extra buck and they'll be scratching everywhere to save. But they'll never look at their existing lifestyle and do a lifestyle audit and then basically decide, I need to downscale certain parts of my life, even if it's just for the next five years to ahead. People try and maintain a standard of living in the worst of economic circumstances. That's not what you should be doing. I always say, temporary pain is worth more than the long-term gain. Temporary pain is worth more than the long-term gain. The long-term gain, if you're prepared to take the pain now, will be infinite.

David Bester 19:18
Ja, also, it's a status thing. People don't want to be seen by their peers as scaling down; they want to maintain that status of ‘I'm important; I've got this awesome car; I've got this suit’. And it's not really important. It's actually stupid to try and impress other people, and just rack up debt. It's human nature; people don't want to cut back. It's really difficult to cut back on a lifestyle, especially if you've got a spouse and kids. So, what can you do, especially online? Here's a simple tip. When you're buying online - this is something I know Justin talked about as well - I know this is what I do personally, specially on those places like Wish and Amazon and Takealot, because it can become very easy, if you just click a button and then, all of a sudden, your cart just fills up. So, what I do is, I select all my products, and then I leave it; I close the computer and I walk away. The next day, I'll log in again and I'll see if the things are really something that I need, and if it's something that I want. And then, I'll start removing them. The next day, I’ll come back and I do the same thing again. And usually I end up, removing about 50% of items in my cart.

Justin Harrison 20:32
Ja, 100%

David Bester 20:37
Only purchase things you need versus wants. So, if you go to a grocery store, for instance, we've talked about this in our other webinars and Global Money Academy. Never go to the grocery store when you're hungry because you'll buy a bunch of crap, that you actually don't need. I remember last time we were laughing, we were talking about, why it's always funny, that the bakery section is positioned so well. Because it gets people to smell the freshly baked bread, and then, make stupid purchasing decisions. Don't go with your kid, or don’t go down the toy’s aisle, if you know that your kids are with you and you can't resist them because that will lead to you taking stuff that you don't actually need. The best thing to do is, make a list and decide, these are the only things that I want, and these are the only things that I'm going to buy, nothing else.

Justin Harrison 21:27
Dawie, you've read my book, called the ‘Money Secret’. On the ‘Money Secret’, one of the things that discuss is, how to control your emotions, when it comes to money. People don't realise that in 98% of the cases that people end up in financial difficulty, is usually not because of any other circumstance other than a lack of emotional control. Now, there are exceptions, where people have medical issues, they’ve lost jobs, there are issues there.

But, in 98% of the cases, people land up in crap, when it comes to money because somewhere, they didn't exercise emotional control.

David Bester 22:03
No, I agree. It comes down to changing habits. There’s a lot of studies being done. They say it takes about 66 days to change your habits. If you consistently work on new habits, they eventually, it will change.

Justin Harrison 22:15
Ja, 100%.

David Bester 22:17
So, how do you get out of debt, which is probably the thing most people are wanting to know. Cancel all the transactions, you don't need. I bet, about 99% of the people, don't do this and I actually do this. What I do is, at the beginning of every single month, the first thing I do, when I wake up in the morning is, I take a statement, credit card or debit card. I pop it into a spreadsheet, and I go over every single transaction of the previous month, and if there are any transactions that I don't actually need, I cancel them. And I reflect back on my spending habits and see how I did. That is the best way to get a grip on your finances and see what you have been doing wrong. As you go along, as you perform or develop new habits, these things will be less important. They won't be popping up as much because you'll have a much clearer way or a clearer view, on your finances and what you're spending money on. But what I definitely recommend is, start off with this. It's accessible to everyone, take about three months bank statements, put it into a spreadsheet and categorise your spending. Look at where you’ve spent too much, how much you’ve spent on certain categories, and how much, or what can you cancel, especially subscriptions. There are a lot of subscriptions, that are unnecessary, that you don't actually need. For instance, if you've got a big debt problem, then DSTV is probably not the best thing to have; it's a luxury; it's something that you can cut, that you don't really need. You can get something like Netflix for a fraction of the price and get the same benefits.

Justin Harrison 23:49
So, Dawie, something you and I often discuss is, value for money, right. One of the reasons why I hated living in London, for a short period of time is because a piece of meat or a cup of coffee costs 10 times more than what it costs, back home and for me, that waste of money, on the same or less value, to me, drives me insane. People have said, “You've got so much money but you complain about the Rands”. And I always say, “Yes, I complain about the Rands and the cents”. Because here's the thing. I don't care how much I pay for something; I care about the value I get in return. And what people need to look at, when they’re looking at things, like where they live: are you getting the value for your spend? The food that you buy – are you getting the value for your spend? If you look at things like, watching TV. First of all, I don't think anybody should actually be watching TV; they should be watching stuff like this and educating themselves. But if you're going to watch TV, there are alternatives that are much better than DSTV. But Dawie, I want to put you on the spot, quickly, before we go to the next point. I want to ask you, in the last three months, in you analysing your spend, name two things that you found, that you eliminated because you felt they were unnecessary?

David Bester 25:03
One was a subscription service that I removed. I didn't use it in the last three, four months, so, it was actually an app subscription, so that's something I removed. The other thing… Sjoe, that's difficult because I do this every single month, like I said, they don’t pop up that often anymore. I actually don't know about anything else.

Justin Harrison 25:34
So, let’s go back to the example you gave. Now, I want you to try and think back to when you took the purchase on that item. Did you believe that it was something you’d keep paying for, all the time, or was there an end date in mind for you?

David Bester 25:46
Well, there was an end date but I don't know when that end date was. So, I looked back into the last 30 days and I saw that I wasn't using it, so I cut it. [inaudible]

Justin Harrison 25:59
That’s a great way of doing things but I’ve got another piece of advice, for anybody signing up for anything that they’re going to be paying. Now, it might be insurance, that you’re going to be paying monthly for; you call them subscription-based services, I say annuity-based services. Anything that you're paying for monthly, right. My advice is, set yourself a calendar reminder, be it six months, be it a year, be it a year and a half. Whatever it is, depending on the individual thing that you’re paying. And make sure, on that date, you go and review: a) Are you still necessary, is it necessary in your life, are you still using it? And b) Can you get the same thing, at a better price, elsewhere? And that should always be something you do, for something you're paying, every single month.

David Bester 26:43
Oh, I’ve got another thing I did remove something as well and that's something I'm guilty about. I removed my audible subscription because I'm just reading Kindle books these days. And I'm ashamed to say, it actually did take me about three months. I thought that I was going to keep using it, and the credits were piling up and they are pretty amazing, when it comes to getting you to not cancel your subscription.

Justin Harrison 27:07
The point is, even us, who have really mastered money, we still make mistakes right. So, it's important to audit yourself, all the time. It's important to look at your transactions and make decisions based on that. These are very, very valid points.

David Bester 27:24
Yes. The next thing: make a note of every transaction you make, especially in the beginning, if you want to get a grip on your finances. I actually joined Justin on a surf trip in Sri Lanka. He was in Sri Lanka and he told me to come with, so I decided, well, why not? And we've always had this thing, where we analyse every single trip that we do and we categorise it and we compare it back to what we've been spending at home. [inaudible] Ja, financial nerds! Most people will enjoy their holidays; we actually go make notes of every single transaction we did. It was just by surprise; I wrote down every single thing. If it was a chocolate I bought, I wrote it down. If it was a coffee, accommodation, every single thing, I wrote down and what I realised at the end of the trip was, you actually start taking notice of every single transaction you do and it's like meditating. The more you do it, the better you get at it. And then, what I realised was, at certain times, I would stand in a grocery store and I would think, I want to take this but then I would realise, I actually don't want to do this. Number one, because I'm probably too lazy to write it down again. And number two is, I actually don't need it. The funny thing that happens is, you start noticing it and you start noticing actually, do I need this or do I not need this because there's going to be work involved for you now and you have to go write it down and then you're going to be feeling, either bad about yourself, or good about the purchase that you did.

Use the envelope budgeting method - it's a great way to actually budget, and if you don't have that kind of patience, we’ve also got a very cool budgeting tool on My Credit Status. It's free to all members. I'll give you a tour a little bit later but it's included. How the envelope budgeting works - let's assume, you've got different categories, right. What they did in the old days was, they didn't have computers and spreadsheets to categorise their spending habits. So, what they did was, they took envelopes. One envelope for utilities, one for rent and one for groceries and they will fill in all the envelopes, when they get their monthly pay. And if the money in the envelope is finished, it’s finished. They cannot spend anything more. If there's money available in the envelope, they would transfer, they would either save it, or they’d transfer it to a different envelope. By doing it that way, it's very simple. You cannot spend what you don’t have, right. If the money in the envelopes is finished, then it's finished; you can’t spend anything more. The problem these days is, you've got extra debt; you've got credit cards, so you spend more, than you actually need. But this comes back to the second point that I made, with make a note of every transaction that you make, because using this envelope system, you also have to physically take out the money from the envelope and then allocate it to the purchase. Justin, I know you've got a lot of things to say about the envelope budgeting tool. I know you've been using it; you actually taught us to use it, ever since we started the mentorship program with you.

Justin Harrison 30:34
Ja, Dawie, the power of the envelope budgeting method is pretty simple. You can't spend what you don't have. Right. And the problem is, in the old days, you had physical cash, that you’d put into different envelopes. The problem today is that your money is electronic. So, you have X amount of money in your bank account and you might, for example, have R5,000 but you don't know what you have left for each category in your spending. And the problem with that is, it's very easy to overspend. You say, you know what, I'm just going to go buy two grands worth of groceries, but maybe you only have R1,000 left in your grocery budget, and now, the thing is, you’re R1,000 over budget. And so, when you have to pay for the next thing, you're going to be R1,000 under budget, somewhere else. And that's how people get into debt. What I really love about the envelope budgeting method is, you have a way of setting up budgets in envelopes, in categories and as you spend, you’re removing money from there. So, at any given point in the month, you know exactly how much money you've got for every single category. And what most people don't appreciate about budgeting – you don’t budget to restrict your spending. People see this as a restrictive process. You don’t budget to restrict your spending; you budget to create additional money to put towards debt, and to put towards savings. And the reason why you do that is, to become wealthy and financially free. Once you can understand that and change your mindset around that, you'll be successful.

David Bester 31:58
Ja, I think that's the biggest problem is, when they hear ‘budgeting’, it's almost like a diet, you know. You don't really want to do it because you know there’s pain involved and people navigate away more from pain than they do towards pleasure. It's just human nature.

Justin Harrison 32:11
Ironically, if you study neuro-linguistic programming, you realise that pain is one of the best teachers. So, I think, in a way, most people have to get into an extreme amount of debt before they take life seriously.

David Bester 32:23
Ja, I read that book about Tony Robbins, one day, and that actually, was the first time I've heard about that. He actually suggests if you've got an eating problem, just think about when you take another bite of that food, just think about the torture or the bad memories that you have about yourself being fat or you see yourself in the future, being fat and being uncomfortable. That will be the best incentive not to actually go ahead with it. Okay, so, this one, I'm not going to spend too much time on. We did a complete webinar and we spoke about it extensively, so please refer back to the previous webinars we did. You can go onto MyCreditStatus.co.za or in this YouTube channel, and look for the webinar we did, when it comes to negotiating lower repayments. But it obviously goes without saying, if you've got a lot of debt lined up, the easiest way to do it is, lower your repayments. That's essentially what a debt counsellor also does, when you go into debt counselling. They go, they make a budget, they see what you can spend and what you can spend on, and then they go to the creditors and tell them, “Listen here, person A can only spend this much, on this account, so, you need to either lower the repayments or the credits or the interest rates, or this person is going to be defaulting on the payment and you're going to lose the entire settlement. So, either you come to the party or you lose the money”. What I suggest is, please go back and watch the webinar, there's a lot of good information we gave there. A lot of good information when it comes to negotiating as well.

Justin Harrison 34:00
Dawie, it comes down to two simple points, when you've got debt. You need to lower the amount of interest you pay, so that you can pay off the debt faster, and most importantly have extra money to put towards the debt, so you can pay it off faster. The best way to do that is, negotiate lower repayments.

David Bester 34:19
Yes, exactly. So, look, if you want to pay off your debt, it’s a mindset. It's like quitting smoking or quitting drinking or stopping any bad habit; you need to set your mind towards it, and you need to work constantly every single day; you need to become obsessed with it. And the way to do that is, to scale to and start paying off your debt immediately. I know lots of people have different ways – I know this question is going to come up - which debts should you pay first? I've got a pretty logical view towards this but I know my view is not the best view; everyone changes. So, Dave Ramsey has got this saying or it's called, ‘The Debt Snowball’. So, what he says is, you need to take the smaller debts and pay off the smaller debts first. What will happen is, you actually just feel good about yourself; it's like an achievement that you just achieved and then it'll become easier, just paying off all the other debts. While my view is a little bit different, probably because for me, it's just logical paying the ones with the highest interest rates; probably because I’m a financial nerd, like Justin said. It all depends what kind of character you've got, what will work for you.

Justin Harrison 35:29
I mean, we all know that success breeds success; failure breeds failure. And so, I think, Dave Ramsey is on the money, when he says, start by paying what you can pay; pay those as quickly as possible. Because the habit of paying, the habit of getting out of debt, once that ball starts to roll, you will roll with it, naturally. Momentum creates more momentum. Certainly, don't neglect the glaring problem in your financial situation. The R200 a month debt is not keeping you in a hole; it’s the 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, R15,000 debt you’re having to pay every month, that is keeping you in the hole.

David Bester 36:07
Ja and the interest you are paying on that. Okay, this one is actually supposed to say, how to stay out of debt. Cancel all the transactions you don't need; start by referring back to one of the previous slides that we did. Go through all your transactions, cancel everything you don't need. Also, think about all the physical things you own and if there's something you don't need or don't use, sell it. Facebook marketplace is a great way to sell it. It takes you about a day and you get things sold there. It's a pretty awesome thing. So, if you have some cash, put it towards your debt payments, and just decide, be obsessed with it, become obsessed with repaying your debt. There's nothing worse than financial stress; it puts stress on your family life, it puts stress on your personal life and stress causes sickness. That's something, none of us actually need right now.

Justin Harrison 37:08
Absolutely.

David Bester 37:11
Second thing: make a note of every transaction you make - I've covered that already. Set up a budget - that goes without saying. Like I said, in my previous example, what a debt counsellor does, when you do onto these programs, even though it harms your credit score immensely, what their steps are is, they will make a budget, they go through all your transactions, they cut wherever they can cut, and then they go to the creditors and they negotiate with the creditors. It's as simple as that. You can do it yourself; you don't need someone to do it for you. You've got the power to do it yourself. Negotiate the lower payments with your creditors and then scale down your lifestyle. This is probably the most important thing of all. If you keep doing the same things and you keep having the same bad habits when it comes to money, then you’re never going to get out of debt. There’s only one way to get out of debt: it’s to scale down your lifestyle and start becoming obsessed with paying down your debt.

Justin Harrison 38:05
Ja, Dawie, this is something, I've literally been caught in screaming matches with people over this. We have a problem in South Africa, for real. Brothers and sisters in this country, we need to wake the fuck up - like I'm sorry, but we really do. We've got people running around in cars they can’t afford, living in homes they can't afford, wearing clothes they can't afford, to impress people they like the least. Something is fundamentally wrong in our society; something is fundamentally wrong in our system. We have to look within. All of us, people, we have to look within, and we have to start asking ourselves, what really makes us happy. I promise you, the opinions of the people around you, are way, way, way less important than the financial security of you and your family. One day when you’re old - Gucci, Prada, Mercedes Benz, Range Rover - those things are not going to be important. What's going to be important is that you have family around you, that love and care for you; what's going to be important to you, for you to be happy because you've got good medical care, that you enter into a comfortable retirement, that you've got good food on the table. Let's stop this materialistic crap, because it is, what it is. I’m calling it, what it is; it's materialistic crap. And in South Africa, we are suffering at epic pandemic levels, from this need to show our wealth, for the need to show people around us that we're doing well. Cut the crap, scale down your lifestyle. If you're in debt, listen to me carefully now. You’re talking to a man, who's been in debt, and who's made a lot of money and created a lot of wealth. Scale down your god damn lifestyle, go back to basics. When you get back to basics, you can get out of debt, you can become financially free, but if you keep trying to impress the people around you, by keeping this high-flying lifestyle, even if it's not that high-flying; if you are spending money on things you can't afford, I promise you nine times out of 10, you're doing it, to impress other people. Cut the crap, scale down your lifestyle, become financially free, become happy.

David Bester 40:10
I fully agree. There's one simple formula, that you can use, to see if you need to scale down your lifestyle. So, if your fixed costs are more than 60% of your total salary, then it means, you've got to scale down and you've got a big problem coming. It's very simple to determine your fixed costs. Go through your last three months’ bank statements, list up all the costs that keep popping up every single month, and that includes your groceries, it includes your rate and then, if it's more than 60%, then you've got a problem and you need to scale down, otherwise, you're not going to be saving, you're not going to be investing and you're not going to be increasing your net worth. This is another very, very important thing: start paying down your debt and invest as soon as you get paid. The problem is, if you want to try and invest or pay down debt at the end of the month, then you’re most probably not going to because you’re going to spend that money. It's a very simple trick. Simply, when you get paid, immediately what you do, instead of going and buying groceries and all kinds of crap, instead of eating out with your family, pay down some of your debt, and put some money aside for savings or investments or whatever it is. But do it immediately when you get paid and not at the end of the month.

See, now, this is actually the last slide. Yes. So, practice new habits daily and stick to them. That goes back to the previous slides we've done. It comes back to being emotionally controlled, when it comes to your spending habits. Identifying needs versus wants. Make a budget fun, instead of restricting yourself. Like Justin said, it’s supposed to be a fun thing. It's supposed to be a challenge to increase your net worth and not restrict you into a process of a situation where you actually feel, you’re being restricted all time and being limited all time. Reward yourself for small achievements. There's nothing wrong with eating out, if you can't afford it. But it doesn't have to involve money. When you achieve something, like paying off a debt, reward yourself, go out, enjoy time with your family. Get the entire family involved. I always joke and I say, I was a smoker for a very long time, for 10 years. And the way I actually quit was, my wife and I decided, we're going to do it together. And that was the easiest way ever for me to quit smoking is, to do it with someone else. So, get your entire family involved. Explain the process that you're in, especially if you're stressed; explain to them why you are stressed and why you're having financial difficulties and get them all involved and explain to them and from now on, we are cutting, we are committed to paying off our debt. The reason is, we want to have more time together, we want to go on family holidays, whatever your goals might be, but get them included in the process. Don't just be in it for yourself because it's going to be a very lonely ride.

Justin Harrison 43:05
Something else, that’s really important, while you're on the subject. I've always said it's really, really hard to train for a marathon on your own; it requires extreme amounts of self-discipline, which the majority of people don't have. That's why, there's so few people in the world, that are absolute winners. Whether it's running comrades or becoming a billionaire, there's a small minority of people who can actually do it, on their own, who have the self-determination and the will. So, if you want my single biggest tip for becoming financially free: get a group of people who have the same goal as you and be honest with each other; get into that group and share. Whether it's your immediate family, whether it's your closest friends, whether it's extended relatives, form groups and start creating a home cell, a network, where you can continuously sit, talking about money and how to get forward. It's amazing to me that people go and spend four or five hours on a Sunday at church. They'll dedicate another two, three hours during the week to home Bible study groups. But at the same time, they'll never dedicate the same amount of time to becoming financially free. If you just gave the same amount of time that you did, to going to church, gave the same amount of time that you did, to sitting around and watching TV and just actively participated with a group of people, who have the same goal as you, the same intention as you. You will have a far greater chance of succeeding, financially.

David Bester 44:35
I fully agree with you and that's also why we started the Facebook group for My Credit Status members. Everyone can participate with each other. You can ask any credit report related or any finance or money-related question and Justin and I, physically sit and answer these questions for the people and it's a great group to be involved in. It's available for all the members on My Credit Status. Always remind yourself of the pain and stress involved with debt, when you want to purchase something. Like we said earlier, pain is probably the biggest incentive, not to do something. So, whenever you want to buy that big purchasing thing, or you want to perform that big purchase again, like a car or a house, or just something that you don't need, just think about the pain involved. Think about the stress - you're waking up every single morning, worrying how you're going to be paying the bills. Being short-tempered but because of the financial stress that you have. Remind yourself of this pain and that is probably the easiest way, to get out of debt and to stay out of debt.

So that brings us to the end of the presentation. If any of you want to learn more about personal finance, like I told you earlier, we've got a website called Global Money Academy. We actually do these webinars every two weeks, just like this, My Credit Status webinar. And on those presentations, or those webinars, we only go into personal finance, increasingly your net worth, saving, making the right investments, how to manage your money properly. And Justin’s got the URL up there; let me just bring it up on my computer screen as well, so people can see.

Justin Harrison 46:23
Dawie, while you’re busy there, I just want to quickly say something. When it comes to your credit reports, the credit report is really the symptom, right? So, when you look at your credit report and you see that there are problems, all you’re presented with, is the symptoms. You have to go and find the solutions for the symptoms, right. And, my honest opinion and not just because I wrote the book, I wrote the book because of this very reason. People have financial symptom they need to correct and those financial symptoms are not everybody's fault. It is a fault and a failing of the system. The system has not taught us how to work with money. I’ve taken 66 pages, summed up the current, modern financial system, and explained why 98% of people are failing at money. If you want to stop failing at money, this is not a punt. Go to globalmoneyacademy.com, select the book, ‘Money Secret’, punch in the code MCS20, get a 20% discount and you're going to learn some things about money, and you're going to have a light bulb moment, which is going to say, Hey, I actually now know why my credit report looks like crap. I actually know why I’m in the situation I’m in. It wasn't my fault to begin with but I now know how to fix it. Go get yourself a copy of the ‘Money Secret’. It’s becoming a best seller on Amazon, for a reason. People are saying that this information should be taught to kids at a school and I absolutely agree with them. This is the stuff that financial advisers are not telling us. This is the stuff that's giving us these absolute shocking credit profiles in this country.

David Bester 48:00
The reason why people have got a bad credit report and a bad credit score is because of their financial habits. So, it all comes down to learning how to how to manage your personal finances again, and basically learning from scratch. And that is exactly what the ‘Money Secret’ will do. I’m living testimony of it. I started mentorship under you - people on My Credit Status don’t know this yet but, on the Global Money Academy, we actually discussed this quite a lot. And I've basically taken all the tips and all the advice you've been giving in the ‘Money Secret’, and that's what you've taught us over the years. That's why I’m in the position that I am.

Justin Harrison 48:38
So Dawie, on that note, before you go into your demo, are you ready for your challenge?

David Bester 48:43
Let's go.

Justin Harrison 48:46
So, I think it's high time, that somebody in this country, steps up and shows people, that it's okay to downscale, that it's okay to live with less and be happy. To become a minimalist and to not be seen as a cheapskate, to become a minimalist and not give a crap about anybody else's opinion. To drive at a non-name brand car and not give a crap, what your friends and family think because you know what's important. What's important is Rands in the bank, right. So, Dawie, I want to challenge you - we want to get the #lessismore, trending. So, are you prepared to downgrade your car to a small, efficient vehicle, something that you need, not want and put the “#lessismore” on your car? If you’re prepared to do it, if you can prove that you can do it, that absolutely anyone can do it and I will do the same.

David Bester 49:49
But then, I win already because I've got an old Toyota Yaris, very old. And I actually drive it. It's actually my wife's one, but I drive it, more than her and I drive it, more than my other car because it's efficient when it comes to fuel, my surfboard can fit in there with me. So, I drive to all the surf spots with it.

Justin Harrison 50:13
I drive an old 2001 Yaris, most days because of that exact same reason, but the question isn't about your second car, it's about your first car. You're on the spot now, hey.

David Bester 50:30
Ja, you put me on the spot here and that's a difficult thing because I drive to Namibia quite often and I need something very reliable.

Justin Harrison 50:36
Now, I just want to show everyone, and the reason why I did this. I just want to show everyone, that even the best of us at money, even the guys who’ve learned, who’ve mentored, who’ve gone through hell to know what they know, there’s still that little emotional puller, that is hard to let go of because, as you said earlier [inaudible]

David Bester 50:59
I’ll be the first to admit that a lot of the decisions going into that, was an emotional decision. And there's going to be a million reasons I can give that [inaudible]

Justin Harrison 51:10
I promise, you’re going to give me at least 100 reasons why you should keep your car, right?

David Bester 51:14
I can give you the best one. I spent 80,000 in three months on my previous car, just because of problems I had, driving to Namibia.

Justin Harrison 51:24
The point is, whether you to do it or not, okay, and I'm going to push you on this, Dawie because I want you to become the poster child for #lessismore. I want MCS to become the poster child for #lessismore. I want us to be a living example, to our fellow brothers and sisters in this country, that you don't have to run around like the politicians, acting like you've got more money than brains, right. You actually need to keep the money in the back, and worry less about material things. I want us to become the poster children for that. I believe we owe it to ourselves; we owe to this country; we owe it to the people that we teach. So, I'm going to keep you on the spot here. And I'm going to keep nagging you about this, until you decide to do it. But, even with you having given the excuses, I actually had hoped you would give excuses because it proves, no matter how far along you are in your financial journey, you have no idea how strong your emotions are. If you want to solve your financial problems in this world, you have to start with your emotions. And here's a classic example. Dawie has been with me for 15 odd years, learning, growing his wealth, building his investment portfolios, and even he, and even I, still have our emotional triggers. If somebody wants to take away my Jeep Wrangler, we're going to have to have a long discussion about it because I love that vehicle. I’m a guy; I love my car, right? If somebody wants to take away seven of my surfboards and leave me with one, we're going to have to have a long chat about it. The point is, Dawie, what we are teaching here is, that emotional control is everything. And sometimes we’re going to slip, sometimes we’re going to err but we have to keep correcting ourselves. Isn't that right?

David Bester 53:05
100% I couldn't agree more. But adding to that, I can also say that there's a lot of financial decisions that I've been wanting to make, especially the last while, which I didn't, because it will be an emotional decision instead of a ‘need’. For instance, when it comes to travelling, there's a lot of places I want to go, the way I want to go but you need to obviously, restrict yourself and you need to decide whether at some point, with some stuff, what you can do and what you cannot do. Luckily, I'm not in a position where, I've got financial troubles. I can afford to have some luxuries, but ja [inaudible]

Justin Harrison 53:47
Okay, Dawie, can I ask you a question? Are you going to become wealthier, quicker, if you have more money at the end of the day?

David Bester 53:54
Of course.

Justin Harrison 53:55
Okay, you're going to, somewhere along this journey, #lessismore, you're going to be the poster child.

David Bester 54:03
Okay, well, thanks for putting me on the spot, on the webinar.

Justin Harrison 54:11
I’m going to keep nagging you about it. Sooner or later, you and I are going to post pictures of us driving a Kia Picanto with #lessismore and when people ask us, we'll be able to be an example of why material things are not important. Deal?

David Bester 54:28
Deal. I’m going to check if I can get the same or more for my, then we’ve got a deal. If I’m going to lose a lot of money on that deal, then we're going to have another discussion again.

Justin Harrison 54:37
We go all. One for all, altogether. We're going to be the poster child; we’re going to teach people that you can live happily and not worry about material things. We’re going to do it, step-by-step, we're going to disassemble our lives in front of people's eyes. Live on the webinars, we're going to show people what we're doing and we're going to show them #lessismore and we’re going to lead by example.

David Bester 54:58
I think Howard is beating us there, to something. He started the hashtag already.

Justin Harrison 55:05
Okay. It’s a deal, right?

David Bester 55:07
Okay, cool. Yes, it's a dangerous thing putting you and I up for a challenge. We're going to end up, driving a piece of scrap at some point, just to beat each other.

Justin Harrison 55:19
Hey, I’m already thinking of bicycles, bud.

David Bester 55:24
You can go ahead with your bicycle; I’m not in it for that. Listen, shall we do a quick demo of our reports, or should we get to some of the questions quickly?

Justin Harrison 55:36
Dawie, let’s do a quick demo. For those who want to stay on and have their questions answered, please feel free. Also, just remain that Dawie and I are, later this week, going to do a live Q&A session on Facebook. We won't be giving any content, just sitting, waiting for the questions to come in and we will basically answer the questions there. So, if we do, for some reason, not manage to get to your questions, I promise you, we will be hosting a live Facebook session. And we might even do it later in the evening, so you can get your questions in comfortably when you’re at home and no stress to be anywhere.

David Bester 56:08
Yes. Okay. We've run a bit out of time. Okay, so, like we mentioned before, we have launched completely, designed completely, a new layout with the consumer in mind. Like we always phrase ourselves, we've got an approach of putting the consumer first or being very consumer centric. So, we've listened to all the questions in the webinars; we've taken everything in. We’ve listened or basically, read all the questions that we get. And so, we decided to redo things a little bit. This is the new credit report that you'll be getting on My Credit Status. As you can see, it's very clear what your credit score is. For this demo, it’s obviously not a good example; he’s got a bad credit score. On the right-hand side, you will see a summary of all your accounts and you will also see the range class that you fall into. Usually, a fair, good or excellent credit score, basically means that you can apply for some kinds of finance. And then, this is completely new on our credit reports - we now show you the chances of actually getting approved for finance. So, we'll show you if you can get a cell phone contract, home loan, personal loan or vehicle finance. The next thing, which is something no-one in the industry really has is, the credit utilisation ratio. This demo account, doesn't have any credit facilities, so he's got a sero-credit score utilisation. Now, a credit scoring utilisation accounts for 30% of your total credit score, so it's a pretty large amount or a large number that it accounts for. So, it's very good to have a credit utilisation score in there. But it's also, most importantly, you need to have one between zero and 30; that is the optimal one. We've added this explanation here as well, which I'm popping up once again, sorry, you can't get rid of me. And we've actually decided on each section that is very important for you to understand, we actually give you an explanation, a detailed explanation in video format; what the section is about, and how to make the most of that section, which is something that none of the other credit bureaus or resellers have at this point. We've got the listing explanations, tips to improve your score, your previous addresses, your phone numbers, previous employers, and you can actually, just by clicking a button, you can dispute items on your credit report. What will happen is, if you click this, you will get to a new screen, where you can add some additional information and when you click a button, it downloads the legal template automatically to your computer, which you can send off to the credit bureaus to dispute your credit score. Then, you've got your previous inquiries. Once again, there’s a section that we explain. The loan accounts, which is your micro loans and personal loans, retail accounts such as store cards, credit cards, vehicle finance, and home loans. And then, like I said, the part that's the magical section, that accounts for about 40% of your total credit score, is your payment profile. This is the most important part of your credit score. If you can fix this part, then 40% of your credit score is fixed. So, it's actually very simple. Your payment history, which has this section, credit utilisation, and then account age and inquiries. Those are the ones that you should look at, when you want to increase your credit score. It’s as simple as that. You don't have to make it very complicated. If you spend your time on those sections, then you can increase your credit score, very easily. You will notice that this person has a horrible credit score and that’s because of a judgment. If you've got a judgment against your name, you're not going to be able to apply for any kind of finance. It's very important that if you've got any judgments, you need to sort that out. So, that is a new credit report and the credit report layout that we've designed. As you can see, it's designed to take you through the steps that are most important, to the sections that are most important and to highlight on every section, why it's important, and what you need to fix on the section. Justin, I’m not going to go through all the other tools that we've got. If someone wants to learn more about the membership option, they can happily go to the video in the YouTube channel, it's called My Credit Status Membership Options. They can read more, or watch the video and see what other features we've got available. I think, let's get to a few questions and answer them and then we can wrap it up.

Justin Harrison 60:50
Absolutely. So, I'm just going to randomly select a few questions here. Dawie, if you can maybe take this question?

David Bester 60:58
“I’m under review at the moment by next year, Jan. 2021, I will be done. So, that means I finished five years of debt review. How long does it take to get my credit rating back up and what are my chances?” Well, if you prepaid all your debt, it basically means that you're starting on a clean slate again. So, you need to start completely from scratch. And it could take up to about a year, six months to a year. What will happen is, if you gradually start showing that you've got a good repayment history, that takes about six months, then your score starts going up. If you if you apply for, let's assume, a credit card, or any kinds of finance, then your credit score drops 10 points, around 10 points but eventually after six months, it starts going up again. So, what I suggest is, go look at our webinars, start planning, start formulating a plan on how you're going to increase your credit score and what steps you're going to take immediately to start on that clean slate to a high credit score.

“Good morning, how long does it take for a debt to be removed from your profile after you have paid everything?” Well, it's basically immediately. If you get the settlement letter and the letter from the debt counsellors, you can just send it off to the credit bureau and it’s gone.

Justin Harrison 62:11
Ja, the key thing is, once you've paid off, make sure you get a letter that says that you paid up. And then, if it doesn't reflect on your credit report within a month, go through our dispute generator, if you’re a member, send your documentation and that will be submitted to the main credit bureaus and you will have the listing updated.

David Bester 62:35
“What percentage of your salary needs to go into your monthly savings?” Justin, I know where that’s going to go now. Look, the biggest amount you can, goes towards your savings. It's as simple as that. There’s no minimum; there’s always a maximum - as much as you can, goes to savings.

Justin Harrison 62:58
100% - that's how much you should save. But obviously, that's not realistic. So, I always say, save as much as you can. There's no hard and fast rule. If you think you're going to become financially wealthy, saving 20%, you're just not going to do it. You need to reduce your expenses, at the very, very least, you should be aiming long-term, to put away 50%. At the very least. Okay. In fact, I’m just going to grab something; I want to show you something that I learned from Shaq. I don’t know if you guys know who Shaq is. Dawie, you Afrikaans boys might not know much about basketball, but there's this very large dude in America, called Shaq and he's become a billionaire. And he's said, this is what most people, who are billionaires understand, that most average people, don't. This is a sheet of paper, right. And so, when you receive your salary, imagine that this piece of paper is your salary. You should do this. Take it, tear it in half, put half away. That’s what left over from your salary. Now, do this again. Put that away and this, is what you can spend. Once you understand that, you will understand how to save and become financially free.

David Bester 64:29
That’s an awesome example.

Justin Harrison 64:30
Next question, comment?

David Bester 64:33
“Issues of funeral covers etc. which is quite popular in communities. How important is it? Also, life cover, car insurance, especially car insurance because most of the time they're not helpful”. Well, I cannot stress this enough, car insurance, medical aids, those things are extremely important. If you've got dependents, depending on you and you are the sole income provider, then yes, life insurance is important. So, it comes down to the individual person; if the lifetime is too expensive, you get funeral cover, at least. Then, you don’t leave the burden on your dependents to have a funeral. It all depends on each and every person might have different needs from Justin just around the house. It's all depends on each and every person. I might have different needs from Justin, Justin might have different needs from someone else. So, yes, it all comes down to what you actually want and what's important to you.

Justin Harrison 65:19
100%. So, Dawie, I think that's a good place to leave it. I'm going to leave Howard’s comment up on the screen as motivation for you and me. I think you and I have to have a long talk about this but I’ve got some really good ideas. I think you and I need to lead the charge and help people realise that it's okay to live with less. It's okay to be a minimalist, it's okay to downscale your life for the future.

David Bester 65:49
Cool. Thank you everyone. We’re going to be posting the replays shortly and also, for the people that are still online, we're going to be sending out a quick survey afterwards. Please, if you can do us a massive favour and answer the survey; it'll help us to deliver better content to you as well. And also, we will be sharing the resources - some of the resources - on the website, on the replay, so just have a look at that. Like the discount code for Global Money Academy, we’ll drop links to the slides – the Global Money Academy and the new credit reports on My Credit Status and the link to the live webinar. You can subscribe, if you haven't subscribed already. Thank you very much for joining us. We'll see you again in two weeks.

Justin Harrison 66:31
In two weeks’, time. Hamba kahle; sala kahle; tot siens. See you next time.

[66:38 AUDIO ENDS]